KRISTEN WELKER:
This Sunday, the threat to democracy.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
Democracy is on the ballot.
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
I don’t think you’re going to have another election in this country. If we don’t win this election.
KRISTEN WELKER:
It’s one of the top issues in the 2024 election.
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
Mail-in voting is totally corrupt. We have to watch the cheating
KRISTEN WELKER:
After the fight over the 2020 election, what lessons have been learned?
GABE STERLING:
Someone's going to get hurt, someones going to get shot, someones going to get killed.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Election workers facing death threats.
AG MERRICK GARLAND:
We have seen a dangerous increase in violent threats against public servants.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Are election officials prepared?
JOCELYN BENSON:
In 2024, the bad actors, I believe will be more coordinated, more strategic, better funded.
BRAD RAFFENSPBERGER:
We support protecting the rights of every voter to have free, accurate and secure elections.
KRISTEN WELKER:
This morning a bipartisan conversation with the secretaries of state in four key battleground states. Plus, the threat of disinformation, artificial intelligence, and a heightened risk from foreign actors.
AVRIL HAINES:
Russia remains the most active foreign threat to our elections.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I’ll speak with The Atlantic’s Anne Applebaum and Renée DiResta of Stanford's Internet Observatory. And in a year when more than half the world’s population will hold elections. How do we restore faith in our institutions? Joining me for insight and analysis are: New York Times Chief White House Correspondent Peter Baker, Amna Nawaz, co-anchor of PBS NewsHour, Evelyn Farkas, executive director of the McCain Institute and veteran Republican election lawyer Ben Ginsberg. Welcome to Sunday and a special edition of Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history, this is a special edition of Meet the Press with Kristen Welker.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Good Sunday morning. In just over five months, voters will decide a presidential election with stakes that could not be higher for issues from the economy and abortion to immigration, foreign policy and the Supreme Court. Voters will pick 11 governors, 34 U.S. senators, 435 members of the House, decide dozens of statewide ballot measures and choose thousands of state and local officials. But in the midst of a historic election, 81% of voters across party lines say democracy in America is under threat. Nearly a third of voters feel so strongly about it that they say they will vote for or against a candidate on the issue, regardless of that candidate's stand on other issues. For months, President Biden has tried to put democracy on the ballot.
[START TAPE]
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
Not since President Lincoln in the Civil War have freedom and democracy been under assault at home as there are today.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Former President Trump who is charged with 14 felony counts related to efforts to subvert the 2020 election continues to falsely claim he won and to warn his supporters not to trust the 2024 results.
[START TAPE]
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
Keep your eyes open. Watch the cheating. The radical left Democrats rigged the presidential election in 2020. The radical left Democrats rigged the presidential election in 2020. And we're not going to allow them to rig the presidential election in 2024. The radical left Democrats rigged the presidential election in 2020. And we're not going to allow them to rig the presidential election in 2024.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Now, Mr. Trump has refused to commit to accepting the election results if he loses, quote: "If everything's honest, I'd gladly accept the results. If it's not, you have to fight for the right of the country." That sentiment has been echoed by his supporters.
[START TAPE]
JERRY JORGENSEN:
President Trump won 2020 and we cannot have a steal on 2024 again.
REPORTER:
Do you think there's any possibility of Biden winning the 2024 election fair and square?
JERRY JORGENSEN:
Absolutely not.
REPORTER: If the results come in, and it says Donald Trump and Kari Lake didn't win, will you trust those results?
LEAANN:
No.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Last month, a third of voters, including 68% of Republicans, told CNN they don't believe President Biden won the 2020 election legitimately. In a March Quinnipiac poll, a third of voters said they're not confident votes in the presidential election will be counted accurately. Half of swing state voters worry about political violence around the election and its aftermath. And nearly 40% of local election officials surveyed this year by the Brennan Center said they have experienced threats, harassment, or abuse for doing their jobs. As Justice Department officials put it last week, those threats have been supercharged online by new technology, like artificial intelligence.
[START TAPE]
AG MERRICK GARLAND:
If you threaten to harm or kill an election worker, volunteer, or official, the Justice Department will find you. The public servants who administer our elections must be able to do their jobs without fearing for their safety or that of their families.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And joining me now for a bipartisan conversation on how to safeguard democracy in 2024 are four chief election officials from battleground states. Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger; Al Schmidt, Secretary of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania; Michigan Secretary of State Jocelyn Benson; Arizona Secretary of State Adrian Fontes. Thank you to all of you for being here for this really important conversation. We know it's a busy time for you, so we really appreciate it.
JOCELYN BENSON:
Thanks for having us.
ADRIAN FONTES:
Thank you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
We're looking forward to the conversation. So, let's start off with the fact that all of you sitting at this table had experienced a form of pressure from the former president, from his allies in 2020 because, of course, they were not accepting the election results. Secretary Raffensperger, let me start with you. As we head into 2024, your state is dealing with two criminal cases surrounding efforts to overturn the election. Is Georgia ready for 2024?
BRAD RAFFENSPERGER:
We're obviously ready, and we're battle tested. We've shown that based on the 2020 results. We now have photo ID for all forms of voting in Georgia. And we add the additional day of early voting, 17 days. And we're also going to do pre-scanning, preprocessing absentee ballots. The results are going to be a lot quicker. But I think I've shown that I'll do the hard work and fight every day to make sure we have fair, honest, and accurate elections.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Secretary Benson, let me turn to you, because 15 people have been indicted in Michigan for their involvement in submitting a fake slate of electors to Congress back in 2020. How is Michigan preparing? Do you feel as though Michigan is prepared?
JOCELYN BENSON:
Yeah, I'm really proud of our work in Michigan to continue to ensure we're increasing the security and transparency of our elections and making our elections more accessible. We'll now have nine days of early voting in our state that we didn't have in 2020. And we actually have more people signing up to be election workers on both sides of the aisle than ever before, stepping up to protect and defend democracy. And we've also developed efforts to educate citizens about the truth of our elections, bipartisan councils to help go into communities so that they know who to turn to when they have questions about their vote.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And Secretary Schmidt, your take? How are you feeling heading into 2024? We remember that back in 2020, it did take a few days for Pennsylvania to count its votes. What are you doing to make sure that you're ready in 2024? Will anything be or look different?
AL SCHMIDT:
The Shapiro administration has been very committed to working closely with our county partners. We have 67 counties in Pennsylvania, and the administration of elections has really devolved to the county level. That's where – that’s where the voting takes place. That's where the initial certifications take place and all the rest. So, we've worked with them closely to improve mail-in ballot processing and all the rest.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Secretary Fontes, let me turn to you, because Arizona just indicted 18 people, again, for a fake elector scheme in your state in 2020. What do you see as the biggest challenges heading into November?
ADRIAN FONTES:
I think the biggest challenge that we are all facing heading into November is the perpetuation of the mis- and disinformation from government officials in the United States of America for whether it's political or other gain. This is the problem that is bigger than any other problem, the mis-, dis- and mal-information. But we continue to provide good, solid elections across the United States of America for our voters using all of the different techniques that are similar. We all check our voter registration rolls to make sure only valid folks get on the voter rolls. We audit those. There are checks and balances all the way through the system to the end. And we're going to keep providing good elections for all of our voters across the country.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, and I – go ahead, Secretary Benson.
JOCELYN BENSON:
Yeah, you know, one of the things, all of us have been a part of the 2020 election in one way or the other. And we've all seen how election officials all around the country are committed to professional operations of our elections, speaking the truth and ensuring that we continue to give voters the confidence they need to cast their vote and know that it'll be counted. And so, I'm really grateful for all of us and our ability to rise above partisan affiliation and be professionals when it comes to administering this election and, as we always say, making it easier to vote and harder to cheat on every front.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah. And we do want to do a deep dive into misinformation and disinformation. And as a part of that, there is this election denialism. Secretary Schmidt, top election officials in 2020 called the 2020 election the most secure in American history. And yet, more than a third of the country still says they don't believe President Biden won the election legitimately in 2020. How do you, as secretary of the commonwealth of Pennsylvania, address that skepticism? How do you convince voters to have faith in this year's results?
AL SCHMIDT:
Well, elections have changed a lot in Pennsylvania in the last several years, but they've changed for the better. Elections have never been more safe and secure with a voter-verifiable paper-ballot record of every vote that's cast that is used in not one but two audits after every election to ensure the tabulated results are accurate. So, they've changed a lot. It's no wonder people have questions. And it's all of our responsibility to answer those – those questions, provided those people are asking questions that they actually want to know the truth about elections. When you know more about elections, you have more confidence in them.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Secretary Raffensperger, what is your take, and what is your approach to dealing with this massive challenge and people not believing the results, not believing that our elections are secure?
BRAD RAFFENSPERGER:
Well, I do a lot of public speaking, going out and talking to groups throughout the entire state of Georgia, and really giving them, I guess, a rearview of what happened in 2020, which is really 33,000 voters just didn't show up on Election Day – Republican voters that had voted earlier in the year at the Republican primary. But then, I talk about what we're doing now. We have voter ID for all forms of voting, 17 days early voting. And then, we have early scanning of ballots. Then, we've added additional audits in state law, which is a good thing. So, we can audit any race. And then, we can actually do a 100% hand recount of the human-readable text. That's right on there. And so, we give voters confidence in that process. And, actually, the UGA-MIT poll said 99% of all voters in Georgia had a very good experience. And on Election Night, we just had our general primary last Tuesday, we had an average wait time of under two minutes. Sometimes it hit at least one minute. We hit that a few times. So, that just shows you we don't have long lines. It's a great experience.
ADRIAN FONTES:
I think one of the critical components, as well, is the notion that it's not just those of us who are on TV who run elections. We've got tens of thousands, almost 10,000 jurisdictions across the United States of America. Those are run by your neighbors, your friends. These are folks in our communities who are doing their level best to make sure that our elections continue to be accountable, and safe, and secure. And when folks are misguidedly disparaging these elections based on bad information, sure, we hear a lot of these threats and a lot of this nonsense. But it's those folks who are being impacted. And then, that's one of the critical components of this. So, what I'm hoping is that folks will come around to actually asking intelligent questions, actually following through when they hear the reality of the facts of the situation on the ground, how it is that we run elections, and then go from there. But we've got to all be listening to one another across the country.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And that's the key, is listening. Secretary Benson, to the point about disinformation, how much of your time does this consume? How concerned are you about disinformation as we head into 2024's election?
JOCELYN BENSON:
Yeah. You know, we said a lot in our darkest moments after the 2020 election, when we were just inundated with lies and misinformation in an effort to overturn a valid and legitimate election that the truth is on our side and that transparency is our friend. So, we welcome people to ask us questions. We welcome people to serve as election workers themselves so they can see up close just how secure our elections are and how many layers of security we have to ensure that only valid citizens are voting and that we count every valid and only count valid votes. And the offshoot of all of this, however, is, as my colleague Secretary Fontes alluded to, are the threats that come to the, you know, everyday election officials who are just trying to do our job. And we have to also protect the people who protect democracy. And that's a lot of what we're working to do to prepare for this year.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You take me to my next question, which is about violence, threats against election workers. There is perhaps no more well-known case than that of Ruby Freeman and Shaye Moss in your state, Secretary Raffensperger. They were election workers. They believe they were targeted in 2020. How do you address that? How do you convince people, as Secretary Benson is saying, to do these jobs, to put themselves in the line, potentially, of threats?
BRAD RAFFENSPERGER:
I know that some people just went on to do other things instead of coming back for 2024. But by and large, in Georgia, we're actually in pretty good shape. The counties have done a great job of recruitment. Whenever I speak to groups, I always let them know. I always ask, "Who here has volunteered to be a poll worker?" And I always make sure we give a standing ovation to that person, because that's really where the rubber meets the road. Elections are run by the local poll workers at each of the precincts. And it's great work. What we also have done, we have poll worker training for political party observers. So, then, all of a sudden, they're going through that poll worker training. They understand all the checks, balances, and fail-safes that are in place so you do have a fair, secure, accurate election.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Secretary Schmidt?
SECRETARY AL SCHMIDT:
You know, one thing in Pennsylvania that we've done as it relates to the threat environment is the Shapiro administration created an election threat task force with different agencies responsible for election administration, different agencies with a law enforcement responsibility, as well, working together. So, should any of that ugliness that we all experienced in 2020 return, everyone knows whose role is what and how to communicate that information expeditiously so law enforcement can do its job, so our election officials can do the job that only they can do, which is counting votes in our representative democracy.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And you have all received threats, am I right, going back to 2020? I mean, show of hands. Just, you've all –
JOCELYN BENSON:
Yes.
BRAD RAFFENSPERGER:
Yeah.
ADRIAN FONTES:
Yeah.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yes. Okay, Secretary Fontes, talk about that. Personally, how did that impact you? How did it impact your family? Did you ever think, "I'm going to quit my job over this"?
ADRIAN FONTES:
Well, I never thought I was going to quit my job. It's going to take a lot more than threats to get this Marine off of – off of his post. But I will say it impacted all of us. It has impacted not just us but our families, as you mentioned, as well. But not just our families. You know, when you have to tell your neighbors, "Hey, pay attention. If something happens, the kids might have to come over," or to have go-bags ready, or to do any number of these things that so many people across the country have had to suffer through, that's a problem. And I think back to what we were talking about just a moment ago, one of the ways that I have been looking at this and addressing this is telling the really hard truth. And that is this: Threats against elections officials in the United States of America is domestic terrorism. Terrorism is defined as a threat or violence for a political outcome. That's what this is. And I think the Department of Justice is really ramping up and starting to prosecute. We're working with law enforcement across the country to really start to address these things. It's not too little, too late, but we do have to address it for what it is.
JOCELYN BENSON:
And, you know, it strikes me how so much of these tactics to try to delegitimize democracy, attack election officials, it's about instilling fear, instilling fear into us as professionals, in our local election officials, and instilling fear in voters.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Did – did you feel afraid, Secretary Benson?
JOCELYN BENSON:
Certainly. I mean, it's really scary when people show up with guns outside your home in the middle of the night and you've got a kid inside you're trying to protect. Yeah, we've all felt that. But at the same time, for me, I think about, you know, the freedom fighters who stood to defend democracy in Selma in 1965. They were afraid, too, and they marched forward anyway because we have a higher responsibility to our country in this moment, and I would argue every voter does in this moment, to really decide who we're going to be moving forward. We are going to be a country that lives up to our ideals, stands up for the voice and votes of every citizen, and marches forward anyway. And I think all of us have become more emboldened and committed than ever before as a result of these threats to protect this sacred democracy that we hold dear in our country.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Secretary Raffensperger, do you feel as though the threats that you faced made you feel more emboldened? How did you cope with them?
BRAD RAFFENSPERGER:
Just put your head down and do your job. Do what's right. And that's why people, I guess, in Georgia re-elected me with just a huge percentage. They knew that I just did my job. And that's what we're all called to do, is do our job. Follow the law, follow the Constitution. And, at the end of the day, every allegation that was ever raised, we checked it out, we got back to people. As it relates to threats, really what bothered me the most is the ones against my wife and the ones against my daughter-in-law.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Secretary Schmidt, talk about it from your perspective, and Secretary Fontes has described it as “domestic terrorism.” Is that how you see it?
AL SCHMIDT:
Well, the point of these threats is really to terrorize and is to intimidate and to try to keep any of us and our election officials at the county level and at the precinct level from doing or not doing something that is their responsibility, which is such a core foundation of our system of government. So, it's important, I think, that, you know, we treat them seriously, we take them seriously, we take steps to mitigate against them, and that our people are safe and feel safe at the end of the day. It's important that none of this that we've experienced should keep people from voting, should keep people from stepping up. And I think what we've seen across the country is people willing to do that, people willing to – to step forward and to make sure that our system functions the way it should.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I want to turn now to something that's getting a lot of attention: efforts to prevent noncitizens from voting. We should note that it's exceedingly rare, and yet some officials believe it's an urgent matter, including yourself, Secretary Raffensperger. Why? And we should note, it's already against the law to vote if you're a noncitizen.
BRAD RAFFENSPERGER:
Because I believe only American citizens should be voting in our elections. And I ran back in 2018 saying the same thing. I'm the first secretary of state in Georgia to ever do 100% citizenship verification. And what we found was about 1,600 people that attempted to register, but we couldn't verify citizenship, so they weren't put on the voter rolls. So, my fellow Georgians asked me, "Are noncitizens voting in Georgia?" I can say, "No, they aren't,” because we've checked it. And then, we've just won a court case which came from the left, the Coalition of the People's Agenda and the New Georgia Project, which was founded by Stacey Abrams. And we won that court case because they tried to stop us from doing citizenship verification before people were put on the voter rolls. We won that court case. And because we won that court case, we put an end to it in Georgia. But also, any other state that gets sued can use us as, you know, an example, as a precedent to make sure you can check your voter rolls –
ADRIAN FONTES:
We were both going to jump in and, I think –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Go ahead. Secretary Benson –
ADRIAN FONTES:
– say the same thing. You go ahead and say that –
JOCELYN BENSON:
Good news. I've got good news for everyone. All of us want to make sure only U.S. citizens are voting in our elections, and all of us follow the law, ensure the federal provisions are protected, and that we're ensuring that only valid votes are counted in our states. So, we're all committed to that, and I think it's really important for folks to know that regardless of our party affiliation, we're doing all that we can and more to ensure, as the facts show in all of our states, that only U.S. citizens are voting.
BRAD RAFFENSPERGER:
But the key thing –
ADRIAN FONTES:
And you make –
BRAD RAFFENSPERGER:
– you just said, though, was federal provisions. There's no provision for state law other than state law. And so, states really should put in their constitution, like the state of Georgia, I've asked them to do, make sure that only American citizens are voting in any election in your state.
ADRIAN FONTES:
And I do –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Secretary Fontes, quickly.
SECRETARY ADRIAN FONTES:
I think Secretary Raffensperger, you proved the point with the statement you made. You did an audit, and you found that there were attempts. But none of those folks were actually registered, and none of those folks actually voted. And that means that elections have been safe and secure from noncitizen voting in Georgia, Pennsylvania, Michigan, Arizona and across the country. So, I think this is a red herring. I think there's already a law against this. But Arizona, by the way, we've had a no-citizen voting law on the books for a long time, and we actually have a separate ballot for folks who are federal-only voters. Our standards are higher than everybody else's, but we've still got folks making crazy allegations that they're not. So, you know, we really have to look at the facts.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Quick response. Is it a red herring? I want to get to AI, something I know you all want to weigh in on. But just a quick response.
BRAD RAFFENSPERGER:
But it's not, because you look at, already, there's the left-wing groups trying to get noncitizens voting in local elections in Washington, DC, New York City, and in other places. And so, if people really, truly believe this, then why are we getting sued by the left to stop us from doing citizenship verification?
KRISTEN WELKER:
What is clear is this will continue to be a topic of debate. I want to get to AI, though, because I know you all have something to say about this. Secretary Fontes, I have to start with you, because you actually turned yourself into a deepfake to make a very powerful point. Let's look at the video. We'll discuss it on the other side.
[START TAPE]
DEEPFAKE OF ADRIAN FONTES:
Hello. This is a public service advisory featuring an AI version of Arizona Secretary of State Adrian Fontes. This video was produced as part of our 2024 statewide election security tabletop exercise. It was created with both the consent and cooperation of the real Secretary Fontes, which, again, is not me. I'm an AI impersonation of him.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Whoo, Mr. Secretary, that's chilling. That's –
ADRIAN FONTES:
Yeah.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– a pretty good impersonation. Why did you feel that was necessary, and what are you doing to combat AI?
ADRIAN FONTES:
Well, look, I have to reach back into my past. And in boot camp and in other military training I had in the Marine Corps, we looked at the weapons of our enemies, and we train against them as much as possible. AI is not a new weapon. It's an amplifier and a magnifier of mis- and disinformation. What I wanted to do is make sure that our elections officials were familiar with it, we had processes to deal with it and address it within each of our counties, because our elections are run at the county level, as well. We also had a tabletop exercise among several for elections officials for the media so that our media partners could know how to react to it and recognize it. And in June, we're doing tabletop exercises for law enforcement. So, the way that we're dealing with it is lowering the excitement about it, taking away the newness of it early so that our folks will be able to not just recognize but understand how to deal with it as quickly as possible.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Secretary Schmidt, what are you doing in Pennsylvania to address this?
AL SCHMIDT:
So, we're obviously monitoring this – this environment. We have a team focused on it. And I think one of the biggest concerns is, you know, how much AI has developed in the last few years. In 2020, we saw absurd threats just spread so easily, knuckleheads from other states putting guns in their car and coming up to the convention center in Philadelphia to try to prevent votes from being counted, eligible votes from being counted. So, people get motivated by somebody's idiot uncle posting something on Facebook. This is a far greater concern.
KRISTEN WELKER:
How do you address that, Secretary Raffensperger, when people are looking online and believing what they see? What should people look out for?
BRAD RAFFENSPERGER:
Well, as it relates to that, it's really just getting out as quick as you can to try and, you know, break that narrative so that conspiracy theory doesn't have time to germinate and just spread all over the country.
JOCELYN BENSON:
Yeah.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Final 30 seconds –
JOCELYN BENSON:
We have to protect voters from being fooled by this new technology. And like my – my colleague, Secretary Fontes, we're doing tabletop scenario-planning exercises. We've also passed laws in Michigan to ban the intentional use of AI to deceive citizens around political issues and require disclaimers and disclosure of AI-developed technology. And I hope the federal legislation will pass, as well, to put this in every state.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, I cannot thank you all enough for being here for this incredibly informative conversation. We'd love to have you all back. Extraordinary to have you all sitting here at the same time. Thank you.
ADRIAN FONTES:
Thank you so much.
BRAD RAFFENSPERGER:
Thank you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And when we come back, we'll take a deeper dive into how disinformation and artificial intelligence are disrupting democracies around the world. Our conversation with Anne Applebaum and Renee DiResta is next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. Nearly three quarters of Americans believe it is very or somewhat likely AI will be used to manipulate social media to influence the outcome of the presidential election. At a Senate hearing last week, National Intelligence Director Avril Haines warned that foreign actors including Russia and China are taking advantage of new technology to spread disinformation.
[START TAPE]
AVRIL HAINES:
Russia remains the most active foreign threat to our elections. Russia relies on a vast multimedia influence apparatus which consists of its intelligence services, cyber actors, state media, proxies, and social media trolls.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
And joining me now are Anne Applebaum, staff writer for the Atlantic and author of the upcoming book “Autocracy, Inc.: The Dictators Who Want to Run the World,” and Renee DiResta, Research Manager at Stanford Internet Observatory and author of “Invisible Rulers: The People Who Turn Lies into Reality.” Thank you both so much for being here. Really appreciate it. Anne, I want to start with something that you wrote in a recent article to open the conversation. You write, quote, "A part of the American political spectrum is not nearly a passive recipient of the combined authoritarian narrative that come from Russia, China, and their ilk, but an active participant in creating and spreading them." What do you think the status of the phenomenon is five months out from our election?
ANNE APPLEBAUM:
So, I think it's important to understand that for the last decade, Russia and now China and other autocracies have been seeking to influence and shape arguments inside the United States. They do this both for their own reasons because they want to demonstrate to their own populations that the United States is chaotic and divisive and is therefore not a model for them, not a model of democracy, and they also do it simply to weaken and divide us so that we're a weaker power on the world stage. And that's something that's been going on for a long time. We saw a version of it in 2016. There have been repeats since then. I think the new element is that there is a part of the American political spectrum that is doing essentially the same thing, that also sees that it's in its interest to portray –whether it's the U.S. government or the U.S. political system or the U.S. electoral system – as weak, degenerate, failing. And by doing so, they therefore boost their own argument which is that we are a radical force who are going to take over and change the system. And the odd thing that you see on the internet now is the two things reinforcing one another. So, you can trace Russian and Chinese action, and you can then see it being promoted and amplified by Americans and vice versa.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, Renee, Anne is talking about the fact that all of this divides Americans. And misinformation and disinformation is at the heart of that effort. And according to one study, misinformation and disinformation are perceived to be the biggest global risks in the next two years ahead of things like global warming, inflation, and other threats. What do you think Americans can do to fight back against this, particularly given this critical moment we're in?
RENEE DIRESTA:
I think, you know, that study is very interesting. I tend to disagree. I would put other things a little bit higher. But what I'll say is: The problem with disinformation and propaganda in general is that it impacts your ability to form collective responses to address those other threats, right? So, the way that we respond to climate change, the way that we respond to collective challenges, crises of any kind, is that we have to come together and function in a unified environment. And when you have propaganda that sits there serving to divide people, to create alternate realities that they operate in, there is no ability to have that consensus. There is no ability to address that collective action. So, I think if the American people are going to respond and move forward, we have to be able to realize that these efforts to divide, that these deliberate, intentional strategies to keep American people fighting with each other – both domestic actors who benefit from it politically, but then also state and foreign adversaries – we have to be able to see that for what it is to resist that and to continue to find some sort of shared American identity that helps keep us moving forward and able to solve collective challenges.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And part of that, Anne, is that we are seeing the way that foreign adversaries, foreign autocratic leaders actually run their countries. You note that leaders like Putin, Bashar al-Assad, Nicolás Maduro, at one time actually tried to defend their lies. But now they're not even doing that. They're just saying, "This is truth."
ANNE APPLEBAUM:
So, the real development and change in authoritarian propaganda that we've seen over the last decade, and over the last several decades even, is that their goal is no longer simply to promote themselves, to promote a beautiful image. If you remember the Soviet Union used to show, there were posters of men with square jaws driving tractors, and it was a lot of stuff about steel production. They've given that up, because that was too easy for people to see and understand that it wasn't true. And instead what they often do now is they use repetitive lies, mostly about us or about the democratic world, rather, more broadly. And they will lie freely and indiscriminately about everything. They will use absurd metaphors. They will describe Syria as a tourist paradise in the middle of a war. They will say that a plane that crashed over Russia, this is the famous Malaysian airplane that crashed over Eastern Ukraine in 2014 was a plot. People put dead bodies on the plane, and then blew it up in the air – so, crazy, insane stuff. And the point of doing that is to make people not believe anything. So, this is the famous tactic called the "firehose of falsehoods," in which if there are lies and lies and lies, one after the next, then eventually people say, "Well, I don't know what to believe. I don't believe anything. I'm not going to participate in politics. I'm staying home." And that is an authoritarian project, and it's also a project of a part of the American electorate as well.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Renee, pick up on that point. And within this context, I just had a conversation with historian Doris Kearns Goodwin recently who said to me that the country is, in some ways, as divided as it was before the Civil War, in part because before the Civil War, there were very divided media ecosystems. And that's what's we're seeing now, to your point. People believe and choose what they want to believe.
RENEE DIRESTA:
So, when you have a media ecosystem where people are significantly divided and polarized, they're following influencers often, right, not mainstream media. You have an entire new media ecosystem –
KRISTEN WELKER:
That's a great point.
RENEE DIRESTA:
– in which you are drawn to somebody because they seem just like you, right? They relate to you. They speak to you. They understand the in-group language that you use. They know the memes that you follow. They understand the deep lore of your community, right? These are the things that we, as this group, believe. And what you see is that, when you have those sort of very niche communities and media ecosystems that speak solely to those niche communities, what you're hearing – to connect it to what Anne said, these sort of "firehose of falsehood" models – you don't have to persuade that community to believe something new. You sort of reinforce a belief that they already hold. And then you do the same thing for a different group and a different group. So, you can create 10 or 12 different explanations for the same event, then just sort of present to the group that is going to be most likely to believe them. And so what we used to have for a brief moment in time – again as the historian you referenced is absolutely correct – there was this period of very, very fragmented media, then a small time of consensus. And now we're sort of returning back to the fragmentation.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And Renee, how does AI – we just had a big conversation with the secretaries of state about this. How does AI play into that? And how much does it complicate efforts to actually tell people, "This is the reality. This is the truth. This is a real piece of information?”
RENEE DIRESTA:
So, generative AI is a tool, right? And it is a tool that can be used in many different ways. It creates content that is nearly indistinguishable from human content. Nearly indistinguishable. And what you see is you can use it to generate text which makes it easier to, for example, run bots, right? We used to identify bots, which are automated accounts on social media platforms, because they'd be very repetitious. They would use what we call "copypasta," where they would all say the same phrase at the same time. And so you could find them. But AI enables the operator to not do that, because it's very cheap and very fast to generate completely novel text. The same thing with images. Occasionally you'll see propaganda photos that will go out that will be, like, clearly edited. And you can go and you can compare one photo to another and see that that edit happened. But when you have a photo that's been generated and there is nothing to compare it to, you don't have a single source of truth. So, at that point you're relying an authenticator to tell you if it's real or not.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Anne, final thought to you. How much of a threat is this? And how much does it embolden foreign adversaries?
ANNE APPLEBAUM:
I think it's a fundamental threat. It's something all Americans should try to understand. And the way that you try to understand your political system, you try to understand who you're going to vote for. You look at what the issues are in the campaign. You should also look at where your information is coming and make sure that it's true.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right, fantastic conversation. Thank you both so much for being here, Anne Applebaum, Renee DiResta, really fantastic. When we come back, a look at the challenge America faces promoting democracy. Our Meet the Press minute is next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. The U.S. has long played the role of promoting democracy around the world, dating back to the end of the second world war, and accelerating after the 1991 collapse of the Soviet Union, which ushered in a new world order. But this approach drew criticism from its rivals. Secretary of State Madeleine Albright joined this broadcast in 1997 ahead of a meeting with China's president.
[START TAPE]
TIM RUSSERT:
Madame Secretary, in the New York Times today the headline is, "Jiang Says U.S. Is Too Pushy for Democracy." That, “American democracy and freedom are not absolute concepts.” Do you agree with him?
MADELEINE ALBRIGHT:
No, I don't. And we've had a very interesting discussion, Tim, also when I was in Asia and variously when I travel, is whether democracy is just a western concept. And I don't believe it is. I think we know that generally it is an accepted value that people should be able to make their own decisions and live lives the way they want to. And if you go back historically, other parts of the world believe that people have inherent value and can live their own lives. So I don't think it's a western concept that we're too pushy about. I don't believe you can ever be too pushy about democracy.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
When we come back, what more needs to be done to restore public faith in elections. The panel is next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. The panel is here. Amna Nawaz, co-anchor of PBS NewsHour; Peter Baker, chief White House correspondent for the New York Times and author of “The Divider;” long-time Republican election lawyer Ben Ginsberg; and Evelyn Farkas, executive director of the McCain Institute. Thank you all for being here. We are excited about this show. Peter, I want to start with you. You have covered every American president going back to Bill Clinton. I don't say that to date you.
AMNA NAWAZ:
But you look great.
PETER BAKER:
Even Madeleine Albright, yeah.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Including Madeleine Albright, exactly. You have just written a book about former President Donald Trump. Five months out before the election, how do you think this moment is testing our democracy?
PETER BAKER:
Yeah, it's testing our democracy because there are two ways of – of – of looking at our elections. One is the way you did with the secretaries of state, which talk about the mechanics, and the systems, and what they're doing to make sure things are working. But the other is you also talked about, which is the faith and confidence in the system. Almost as important as how you organize your early voting or how you count is do people believe in an election reflects an honest counting of the votes. And right now what you have, as you showed in that poll, 35% of Americans don't believe that. And that's, I think, the most critical question of our moment right now.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah, I think you're absolutely right about that. Amna, pick up on that point, and you also heard my conversation with the secretaries of state talking about the fact that election workers, that they themselves felt threatened back in 2020. Felt real fear for their families. That is part of this erosion in faith.
AMNA NAWAZ:
Absolutely. And the threats have been increasing since 2020. It's not election officials alone. We know federal, state, and local elected officials have also been facing an increase in threats. We know women and people of color in particular are targeted worse for some of those. And we also think more Americans find political violence of some sort acceptable than at any other point in modern history. Not a majority, but more than before. Look, has our country survived periods of political violence before? Yes, absolutely.The period leading up to the Civil War, the war itself. You think about the state and white violence against Black civil rights activists in the '50s and '60s. Even then, Kristen, no one tried to stop the peaceful transfer of power through political violence until 2021. And I remember standing outside the Capitol that day and thinking, "I have seen these scenes unfolding in countries around the world I've covered, and now it's happening here." So what's underlining a lot of my reporting this season is the idea that our democracy is not immune. And that even though history is a guide in many cases, it's not a guarantee.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, Ben, it's chilling the points that Amna makes. And the rising concerns about political violence, the rising concerns about whether there will be a peaceful transfer of power. You, of course, were on the National Council to the Bush-Cheney campaign. Tough, hard-fought victory, and there was a concession. I want to play a little bit of that and get your reaction on the other side. Let's take a look.
[START TAPE]
VICE PRES. AL GORE:
Now the U.S. Supreme Court has spoken. Let there be no doubt, while I strongly disagree with the court's decision, I accept it. I accept the finality of this outcome, which will be ratified next Monday in the Electoral College. And tonight, for the sake of our unity as a people and the strength of our democracy, I offer my concession.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Al Gore conceding to former President George W. Bush. What goes through your mind when you see that, Ben, and how does that moment compare to this moment?
BEN GINSBERG:
It says how far we've come as a country. The differences between a defeated candidate in a very contentious election accepting that because the institution produces a result we need to believe in for the peaceful transfer of power. And fast forward to today in 2024, where without evidence, without close elections, we're calling into question fundamental accuracy of our elections and the difficulties that that can cause. What it says, I think, is that we are in a very different position, maybe a precipice, for the 2024 elections because of the third of the country that won't accept election results, because you have for the first time a major political candidate saying the election is rigged without any proof of that, despite numerous court cases and other opportunities.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Evelyn, what is your biggest concern as we head towards November?
EVELYN FARKAS:
I mean, I think that my biggest concern, like all of us probably, is that there isn't a peaceful transfer of power. That there's violence again, as we saw in the last presidential election aftermath. This is something that no American wants to witness. And – and frankly, the other part of it is, of course, that there will be a lot of Americans who question the elections. And that will not go away even after the elections, even if there is a peaceful transfer of power. So again, all of the things that you talked about earlier with the secretaries of state about mis and disinformation. We did a poll, the McCain Institute, in Arizona of youth in Arizona after the midterm elections in November of 2022, found that only half of the youth believe that the elections were legitimate and the outcome represented the will of the people. That's just two years ago. So this trend is not likely to stop even if we have a peaceful election.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And Peter, former President Trump, it should be noted, is the only modern American president not to concede. There have been some Democrats who have raised questions, doubted the election results. We saw that in 2004. We saw that in 2016. Where is the line?
PETER BAKER:
Yeah, sure. Of course we have. There have been plenty of sore losers in the history of American politics. If you lose an election, you're going to look for a reason for why you did. And it's usually because the other side was somehow unfair. And you can complain about the rules. We should have longer early voting, or it's not fair that they change the rules because of COVID, or whatever excuses you want to use. Maybe they had an effect; maybe they didn't. There's something different, though, than a handful of congressmen saying, "I object" during the Electoral College and what happened in 2020, what's happening right now. Which is to say that the president of the United States at that time urged his vice president to single-handedly disallow the election that would toss them out of office. Richard Nixon certified his own defeat in 1960 as Vice President Walter Mondale as vice president certified his ticket's defeat in 1980. We just saw Al Gore who did the same thing. And we have not seen anything like what we have seen, as Amna just talked about, the violence in these last four years. And I think that that's an important difference. The false equivalence should not confuse people as to what's happened here.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And Amna, to some of the points that you've made, there is this erosion in faith in institutions, in our elections. The poll just conducted in March said a third of voters said they're not confident the votes in the presidential election will be counted accurately. How do you reverse that with five months to go?
AMNA NAWAZ:
Yeah, look, a third don't believe the results will be counted accurately. A third still believe in the big lie, at least, that President Joe Biden did not actually win the 2020 election. A third at least believe that our democracy is not functioning well. This is in the context, we should note, of a declined interest of all American institutions, Congress, the Supreme Court, the media as well. And we shouldn't lose sight here. These institutions are made up of people. Our democracy is made up of people. I don't think it's about reversing the trends as much as it is moving through this moment. And if I find any sign of hope anywhere, it's two things. One is that we had the highest level of voter turnout in 2020. Some two-thirds of the eligible voting population showed up. That is good for democracy. That's a trend moving in the right direction for democracy. And it's also that nine out of ten Americans agree on core democratic principles, things like the right to equal protection under the law, the right to privacy, and the right to vote. There's a nation in there.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Ben, when you think about our institutions and the lack of faith in our institutions, do you think if the presidential election were to be decided, for example, by the House of Representatives or by the Supreme Court, would people believe that outcome today? What would happen?
BEN GINSBERG:
It very much depends on how we get there, what the facts are. Every state has the ability to give a recount, or a contest, or litigation. Those actions actually help to validate the election results. The real question is whether the candidates accept, as part of the rule of law, what's determined in those core cases, and recounts, and contests. So the factual record is what will determine that. And we are a nation of laws, not of people. Yet it is the people who will set the tone on whether those decisions are accepted.
KRISTEN WELKER:
No doubt about that. Evelyn, 30 seconds left. The U.S. is the gold standard, or supposed to be, for democracy. How is the world watching this moment?
EVELYN FARKAS:
The world is watching with a lot of fear and trepidation, Kristen. They saw last time around. For the first time, as Amna said, we had a violent transfer of power that shook our democratic allies to the core. Freedom fighters, democratic partners and allies are watching, and they're hedging their bets. They are very worried.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Thank you all so much for being here. We really appreciate it. When we come back, a reminder of what our democracy means to all of this on this Memorial Day weekend.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. A closing thought as we head into this Memorial Day weekend. We felt it was important to devote the broadcast to an issue that voters tell us is one of the most important for them in November. So thank you for joining us for this bipartisan conversation about how to restore trust in institutions, and to openly discuss the challenges the nation faces. And finally, before we go, as we do every Memorial Day weekend, we remember the U.S. service members who have been killed in the past year serving the country. Please spend some time thinking about those who have served. That is all for today. Thank you so much for watching. We'll be back next week, because if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.
